Comic/Graphic Novel Discussion Thread

[Eh Steve]

Hey I've got the opportunity to read a large chunk of Marvel's back-catalogue online. I need some recommendations to which series are worth my time. I really have only the faintest clue about the Marvelverse and after the World Cup is over, I've decided to devote a nice chunk of my time to a crash-course in everything Marvel.

I'd recommend Captain America.  Specifically Mark Waid's initial run (#s 444-454).  Lots of good spy/action stuff. 

I'd also recommend Any of the Abnett & Lanning Cosmic Stuff (Nova, Guardians of the Galaxy, Annihilation, Annihilation Conquest) from recent years. 

And I'd recommend The Infinity Gauntlet (plus the 2-part Thanos Quest miniseries that led up to it).

Also, Pretty much ANY of Chris Claremont's run on Uncanny X-men. 

I don't know all of what's available on Marvel's online archives, but those are my initial recommendations.

[Toxic Izzy]

I'd recommend Captain America.  Specifically Mark Waid's initial run (#s 444-454).  Lots of good spy/action stuff. 

I'd also recommend Any of the Abnett & Lanning Cosmic Stuff (Nova, Guardians of the Galaxy, Annihilation, Annihilation Conquest) from recent years. 

And I'd recommend The Infinity Gauntlet (plus the 2-part Thanos Quest miniseries that led up to it).

Also, Pretty much ANY of Chris Claremont's run on Uncanny X-men. 

I don't know all of what's available on Marvel's online archives, but those are my initial recommendations.

Marvel's digital comics archive is far from complete, but it's still great value for money if you ask me. Much of their most popular series are available (so far I've gone thru Uncanny X-Men like mad, including Chris Claremont's run, Astonishing X-Men, X-Treme X-Men, which was better than the lame title suggested, The Runaways and some short mini-series like the original Wolverine 4-issue mini-arc, Kitty Pryde and Wolverine, Kitty Pryde Shadow and Flame and Great Lakes Avengers)

[Juss]

Just ordered volume 2 of Bendis Daredevil run.  It's been about 2 years since I read the first volume.  Had to wait a year for col 2 to come out and then ... I'd lost the momentum and it seemed expensive 

Well, I blatantly can't afford it right now but I realised that if I leave it any long it'll go out of print and I'll kick myself forever.  The first volume convinced me that this is one of the great comic runs of all time - I have to have it.

NB This'll be the fourth Daredevil giant sized Omnibus I've bought. sweeeeeeet.  I might just by the Brubaker one in Omnibus edition and sell off my paperbacks. 

[Toxic Izzy]

I have now been a subscriber of Marvel's Digital Comics for about a month and it is definitely worth considering if you like the Marvel-verse. There are a ton of comics from the Golden Age available that would otherwise set you back a year's salary and you can read them all at your leisure. So far I have concentrated mostly on the X-Men and their various spin-offs, with a little Captain America, Avengers and Spiderman on the side.

If you're a fan of Doctor Strange/ The Defenders, it's not worth signing up, only a limited number of issues are online. Kind of disappointing since it's one of the few titles I used to collect way back in the '80's.

The archives are not without other flaws: The digital reader can act up at times, failing to load text balloons and there is no feature that allows you to search for and read specific storylines. This is especially frustrating when a particular story is spread over several spin-offs. For example the Messiah Complex story-line is spread over Uncanny X-Men, X-Factor, New X-Men, but there's no option to read that story-line from start to finish without going back to the Marvel site to jump between series.

Then there's Whedon's Astonishing X-Men run which is concluded in Astonishing X-men Annual #1... which hasn't been uploaded yet. 

X-Factor (2004-present) is bloody brilliant.
X-23 and X-23 Target X provides a very gripping origin story for a character who is basically a teen, female Wolverine rip-off.

[Juss]

I have now been a subscriber of Marvel's Digital Comics for about a month and it is definitely worth considering if you like the Marvel-verse. There are a ton of comics from the Golden Age available that would otherwise set you back a year's salary and you can read them all at your leisure. So far I have concentrated mostly on the X-Men and their various spin-offs, with a little Captain America, Avengers and Spiderman on the side.

I so nearly signed up at one point, but didn't want to take on another monthly subscription that I might not use.  At the end of the day I'm still buying a lot in paper form and I'm struggling to get through them.

Also, it does kinda irk me that they can't provide a service that gives you every new Marvel release, say, a month down the line from the paper comic.  Why do we have to have this "not sure what we're gonna get and when" approach.  There's no good reason the the final Astonishing X-Men isn't on there, for instance.

On the other hand I really reall want to get my claws into Spidey's Brand New Day and it's a good way to do it!

Then there's Whedon's Astonishing X-Men run which is concluded in Astonishing X-men Annual #1... which hasn't been uploaded yet. 

What did you think of it overall?

X-Factor (2004-present) is bloody brilliant.

I've read some of this, just the first arc I think and yes, it was superb. 

[D_Davis]

I love the hell out of old Dr. Strange and Cloak & Dagger.

[Toxic Izzy]

I so nearly signed up at one point, but didn't want to take on another monthly subscription that I might not use.  At the end of the day I'm still buying a lot in paper form and I'm struggling to get through them.

Also, it does kinda irk me that they can't provide a service that gives you every new Marvel release, say, a month down the line from the paper comic.  Why do we have to have this "not sure what we're gonna get and when" approach.  There's no good reason the the final Astonishing X-Men isn't on there, for instance.

On the other hand I really reall want to get my claws into Spidey's Brand New Day and it's a good way to do it!

I know, it's far from perfect. But at least it's a step in the right direction. At least Marvel recognizes that it needs to go digital if it wants to survive as a publishing house and I'm sure that if the digital comics division turns out popular enough, their service and dedication to it will grow.

What did you think of it overall?

I thought it was astonishing, yeah. The artwork was great and Whedon really nailed the X-personalities while still infusing them with his trademark Whedonisms. While the story-arc could have been perhaps a tad more ambitious, it more than makes up for it with great dialogue, sharp characterizations and sheer pleasure to read. This becomes especially evident when it's compared to the Warren Ellis run on Astonishing X-Men. Not only does the art deteriorate, with often confusing layouts (especially in Marvel's digital reader) but there is a noticeable drop in everything else as well. 
 

I've read some of this, just the first arc I think and yes, it was superb.

The writing, in many ways, reminded me a lot of Whedon's Astonishing run. Peter Davis' take on the Multiple Man is the first incarnation of him that I've read with character and personality. You can really tell that Davis has a connection with these second-tier characters that other writers failed to achieve, and Davis might just give Whedon a run for his money when it comes to pop-culture references.

[slqrick]

http://comics.ign.com/articles/111/1110713p1.html

A solid article on why Planetary is the greatest thing, evah.

[~B~]

I'm going to get a marvel subscription so I can read cap.

[~B~]

Read the first 6 issues of Brubakers Captain America. Its pretty damn good.

[Juss]

Read the first 6 issues of Brubakers Captain America. Its pretty damn good.

I had absolutely no doubt at all that you'd love this.  It's just terrific.  I'm not sure how Marvel has it listed but don't miss the Winter Soldier special as that one really makes it for me.

[Toxic Izzy]

I just finished the 7-part Civil War arc (and the Wolverine tie-in). How do people feel about this particular direction the Marvelverse took? Personally I thought it was a bit heavy-handed (and the artist who drew the Wolverine tie-in sucks).

Also can anyone direct me towards the issue in which Cap is assassinated (series, title and issue)? Marvel's archives really suck in not having a keyword search engine.

[Juss]

I just finished the 7-part Civil War arc (and the Wolverine tie-in). How do people feel about this particular direction the Marvelverse took? Personally I thought it was a bit heavy-handed (and the artist who drew the Wolverine tie-in sucks).

Also can anyone direct me towards the issue in which Cap is assassinated (series, title and issue)? Marvel's archives really suck in not having a keyword search engine.

To be really intellectual and interesting about this....  I thought that Civil War basically sucked.  The whole event machine put me off buying Marvel comics on a regular basis because I'm not interested in reading and buying poorly written comics in order to keep up with all the other ones.   grrrrrr

I think Cap got assassinated in number 25 of Ed Brubaker's Captain America run. (started at #1)  It's not worth reading that issue standalone because it's really just the central point of a much much larger story arc spanning around 50 issues (dunno, I not finished it yet) and in itself it's slightly deliberately anti-climactic.  Hey, I've been recommending this for a long time now, you know the drill.  Ed Brubaker = awesomeness.

[Toxic Izzy]

Yeah, yeah. I get it Brubaker's run is like the Citizen Kane of comics.  I'm slowly getting to it, I'm just getting some other reading done first. I'm getting the feeling though that the whole Marvelverse is simply too effing big! I feel like a juggler handling about a dozen chainsaws at once.

I'll tell you what though, despite its shortcomings, Marvel's Digital Comics service is turning out to be a pretty invaluable tool and I've already gotten my money's worth out of my year-long subscription (which is really about the same as the price of two or three TPB's over here).

[Juss]

Yeah, yeah. I get it Brubaker's run is like the Citizen Kane of comics. 

 

Actually, I generally describe him as what 24 would be like if it were a comic and were any good.  He's a very fast paced, ballsy, very manly writer and I'd probably hate him if he didn't have such a gift for getting you hooked and turning pages.  He's thoroughly not boring and even in comics that's a surprisingly rare gift.  He's also good at getting from A-B by way of X-P-T-D-V.

I'm slowly getting to it, I'm just getting some other reading done first. I'm getting the feeling though that the whole Marvelverse is simply too effing big! I feel like a juggler handling about a dozen chainsaws at once.

Thank God this isn't a DC archive.  I agree with you that the Marvel universe can be confusing but I think it's comparatively straightforward next to what I know of DC.  It turns me off of most DC comics whereas I can usually pick up a Marvel run and get into it fairly easily.

Goodness, I know you don't have time to read everything.     I know I've gone on about CA a lot recently but that's mostly coincidence really.  Read whereever the mood takes you, but if you do ever fancy it, well, yeah, most of Brubaker's stuff that I've read has my highest endorsement. (what more could a writer want?)

I'll tell you what though, despite its shortcomings, Marvel's Digital Comics service is turning out to be a pretty invaluable tool and I've already gotten my money's worth out of my year-long subscription (which is really about the same as the price of two or three TPB's over here).

To be honest, if I weren't about to quite my job I think I'd be strongly tempted.  I know there's no way I'll be giving up my DVD rentals though and I can't afford a comics subscription on top...yet.  Until I know I have an income 

[Eh Steve]

I've been quiet on this for long enough.  Brubaker's run on cap is not good.  It's not great.  It's not tolerable (for me).  In fact, Brubaker's run on Cap is equivalent to fecal matter in print.

Granted, I'm not usually on the same page with Juss when it comes to entertainment.  So take that into account when considering what I have to say.

Brubaker is a one-trick pony.  Read Point Blank & Sleeper from Wildstorm.  Read his run on Daredevil.  Read his run on Cap.  They all start out with Brubaker killing off someone who's been integral to the character (granted, in PB/Sleeper, Wildstorm vetoed his plans and made him adjust it to coma status instead) followed by the lead character learning something important about himself and/or taking down those responsible.  I realize that that's the plot for just about every major comic story/action movie plot.  But to me, it just feels like Brubaker can't start his tales any other way.  God forbid he ever be allowed to write Superman.  He'll probably kill off Lois, Jimmy, or Ma Kent.

Secondly, His run on cap began with him resurrecting someone from Marvel continuity who should be dead.  He serves the Marvel universe better that way.  Prior to Joey Q taking over, the standing order was that Bucky and Uncle Ben were dead and gone.  And think about it.  Without Uncle Ben's death, Spidey wouldn't have had the message about power and responsibility hammered home to inspire him to fight crime.  Bucky died saving people by attempting to diffuse a bomb that exploded prior to it reaching it's target.  Rogers was wracked with guilt over Bucky's death (much Like Batman was over Jason Todd's death, but don't get me started on that resurrection) and thought twice about endangering others in his battles.

Couple that with Brubaker retconning Bucky into a black-ops soldier/assassin and you really go against everything about Cap and Bucky that had been established in the previous 50 some-odd years of continuity.  Not to mention him writing Steve Rogers as some out-of touch old fogey.  I'm sorry, but Rogers has been around SHIELD, the Avengers, the FF and fought against technological geniuses like Dr. Doom.  He knows what a fucking iPod is.  He knows what the effing internet is.  He's dealt with cosmic and super tech that makes the iPad seem obsolete.  He may not use facebook or go to a coffeehouse very much, but then that's an idiot writer's fault for thinking those things are relevant.

Rogers is Captain America.  Bucky-Cap is an abomination and Brubaker should be dragged out to the courthouse steps and shot for writing this atrocious tale.

[Matt]

I've been quiet on this for long enough.  Brubaker's run on cap is not good.  It's not great.  It's not tolerable (for me).  In fact, Brubaker's run on Cap is equivalent to fecal matter in print.

Granted, I'm not usually on the same page with Juss when it comes to entertainment.  So take that into account when considering what I have to say.

Brubaker is a one-trick pony.  Read Point Blank & Sleeper from Wildstorm.  Read his run on Daredevil.  Read his run on Cap.  They all start out with Brubaker killing off someone who's been integral to the character (granted, in PB/Sleeper, Wildstorm vetoed his plans and made him adjust it to coma status instead) followed by the lead character learning something important about himself and/or taking down those responsible.  I realize that that's the plot for just about every major comic story/action movie plot.  But to me, it just feels like Brubaker can't start his tales any other way.  God forbid he ever be allowed to write Superman.  He'll probably kill off Lois, Jimmy, or Ma Kent.

Secondly, His run on cap began with him resurrecting someone from Marvel continuity who should be dead.  He serves the Marvel universe better that way.  Prior to Joey Q taking over, the standing order was that Bucky and Uncle Ben were dead and gone.  And think about it.  Without Uncle Ben's death, Spidey wouldn't have had the message about power and responsibility hammered home to inspire him to fight crime.  Bucky died saving people by attempting to diffuse a bomb that exploded prior to it reaching it's target.  Rogers was wracked with guilt over Bucky's death (much Like Batman was over Jason Todd's death, but don't get me started on that resurrection) and thought twice about endangering others in his battles.

Couple that with Brubaker retconning Bucky into a black-ops soldier/assassin and you really go against everything about Cap and Bucky that had been established in the previous 50 some-odd years of continuity.  Not to mention him writing Steve Rogers as some out-of touch old fogey.  I'm sorry, but Rogers has been around SHIELD, the Avengers, the FF and fought against technological geniuses like Dr. Doom.  He knows what a fucking iPod is.  He knows what the effing internet is.  He's dealt with cosmic and super tech that makes the iPad seem obsolete.  He may not use facebook or go to a coffeehouse very much, but then that's an idiot writer's fault for thinking those things are relevant.

Rogers is Captain America.  Bucky-Cap is an abomination and Brubaker should be dragged out to the courthouse steps and shot for writing this atrocious tale.

Not to say that your points about Bru's run on Captain America aren't valid, but do you honestly think that either of the big two companies have given a shit about continuity in our lifetimes?

[Eh Steve]

Not to say that your points about Bru's run on Captain America aren't valid, but do you honestly think that either of the big two companies have given a shit about continuity in our lifetimes?

Not anymore.  Though I remember they used to (around the 80s and a little bit in the 90s) for a little while.  And that makes me less and less likely to pick up any new title from them or stay on a title once the writer(s) leave.

[Matt]

Not anymore.  Though I remember they used to (around the 80s and a little bit in the 90s) for a little while.  And that makes me less and less likely to pick up any new title from them or stay on a title once the writer(s) leave.

The only big superhero title I was reading when I had a pull list was Brubaker's Daredevil.  I didn't think it was quite as superlative as Bendis's run, but it was a damn sight better than anything else I'd sampled.  I got into comics just when the Civil War and Infinite Crisis stuff was getting into full swing, and Marvel/DC couldn't have done anything more effective to dissuade me from trying to get on board their big books.  All I knew is that people were supposedly dying and some people may/may not come back from the dead.  It was all bullshit.  There are no stakes in a superhero book.  They killed off Superman, then brought him back.  Total bullshit.  They killed of Captain America and brought him back.  Total bullshit.  They killed off Batman and brought him back.  Total bullshit.  They retconned Spider-Man and Mary Jane, then retconned it back again.  Total bullshit.  I can't get on board with that crap.  Even if individual writers and artists have artistic integrity, it's all subordinated to the goals of the company, and the company is almost always going to be dedicated to preserving sales.  That's their prerogative; I just don't have to lay down money as a consumer for it.

I'm also skeptical about crossovers in general.  The only book I'm going to start getting monthly again is Fables, and even that crossover sucked rotten eggs.  Just terrible.  It doesn't help that I find Jack insufferable as a character, so seeing him take over half the issues just rubbed me the wrong way.  I've thought about catching up on Jack of Fables just because Willingham is generally a witty writer, and the other characters seemed interesting.  But Jack was better as an ensemble player.

[Juss]

I've been quiet on this for long enough.  Brubaker's run on cap is not good.  It's not great.  It's not tolerable (for me).  In fact, Brubaker's run on Cap is equivalent to fecal matter in print.

Granted, I'm not usually on the same page with Juss when it comes to entertainment.  So take that into account when considering what I have to say.

Brubaker is a one-trick pony.  Read Point Blank & Sleeper from Wildstorm.  Read his run on Daredevil.  Read his run on Cap.  They all start out with Brubaker killing off someone who's been integral to the character (granted, in PB/Sleeper, Wildstorm vetoed his plans and made him adjust it to coma status instead) followed by the lead character learning something important about himself and/or taking down those responsible.  I realize that that's the plot for just about every major comic story/action movie plot.  But to me, it just feels like Brubaker can't start his tales any other way.  God forbid he ever be allowed to write Superman.  He'll probably kill off Lois, Jimmy, or Ma Kent.

Secondly, His run on cap began with him resurrecting someone from Marvel continuity who should be dead.  He serves the Marvel universe better that way.  Prior to Joey Q taking over, the standing order was that Bucky and Uncle Ben were dead and gone.  And think about it.  Without Uncle Ben's death, Spidey wouldn't have had the message about power and responsibility hammered home to inspire him to fight crime.  Bucky died saving people by attempting to diffuse a bomb that exploded prior to it reaching it's target.  Rogers was wracked with guilt over Bucky's death (much Like Batman was over Jason Todd's death, but don't get me started on that resurrection) and thought twice about endangering others in his battles.

Couple that with Brubaker retconning Bucky into a black-ops soldier/assassin and you really go against everything about Cap and Bucky that had been established in the previous 50 some-odd years of continuity.  Not to mention him writing Steve Rogers as some out-of touch old fogey.  I'm sorry, but Rogers has been around SHIELD, the Avengers, the FF and fought against technological geniuses like Dr. Doom.  He knows what a fucking iPod is.  He knows what the effing internet is.  He's dealt with cosmic and super tech that makes the iPad seem obsolete.  He may not use facebook or go to a coffeehouse very much, but then that's an idiot writer's fault for thinking those things are relevant.

Rogers is Captain America.  Bucky-Cap is an abomination and Brubaker should be dragged out to the courthouse steps and shot for writing this atrocious tale.

It seems to me that you invest a helluva  lot in your own personal wishes and desires around a particular character and, to be blunt, I think that is fundamentally the wrong way to approach art.  It's not your personal story written to suit your needs, it's the story of the author who wants to tell it.   You’ve complained a lot about Whedon’s stuff for killing off so and so because, from what I could tell, you didn’t like it, even though what Whedon does is perfectly artistically credible and serves the story.  Now you’re complaining because Brubaker killed Captain America and brought back Bucky because why, it’s not in synch with a Captain America created in the 1940s?

(FWIW I don’t recall anyone significant dying at the start of Bru’s Daredevil and, being an original, I don’t recall someone “significant” dying in Criminal.  Did anyone die at the start of his Catwoman run, I don’t recall but I don’t think so.  You’re pigeonholing him as a one trick pony because you don’t like the fact that he killed Cap and that’s daft.  I’ll be the first to admit that he’s not the most versatile writer in the world but that’s partly the nature of the industry.)

If Uncle Ben were brought back, so what?  The question I’d be asking myself at that particular moment of reading it is “is this a good Spiderman story”  not “does it serve the needs of a story that was written 50 years ago” but “does it serve my storytelling needs right now?”  Bringing back Uncle Ben would be a tough proposition, mind.  As tough as retconning the entirety of Spiderman so that it could start over clean with no continuity, but as it happened, even though One More Day was a shit storyline, it actually served the needs of Brand New Day which was a very good, well told story.  Why care about continuity so goddamn much, I simply don’t get it?  If a story is well written and entertaining then it is.  None of your criticisms against Cap appear to me to centre around an inability on Brubaker’s part to forge the particular story that he wanted to tell.