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Author Topic: The Armond White Discussion Thread  (Read 3956 times)
Matt
skeptic

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« on: October 22, 2009, 04:34:21 PM »

That's right.  An entire thread dedicated to the King of Contrarianism, the Hater of Hipsters, the one and only self-identified Resistance: Arrrrrmoooond Whiiiiiiite!

Most of you probably already know that I read White on a regular basis, and I'd be interested in discussing his writing on film (and music) with anyone who has an opinion on it.  I don't know if this thread will turn into an ongoing project or if it'll die a quick death, but I will start by posting a few reviews, and try to get some talking points started.  I'm kind of hoping that even those of you that truly despise White will consider partaking this thread in relatively good humor.
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Juss
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« Reply #1 on: October 22, 2009, 04:36:02 PM »

I could always get on the hate train....

The dude sux.

IMHO
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D_Davis
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« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2009, 05:16:56 PM »

He's a paid troll.

I do not, and cannot take anything he says seriously.
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Matt
skeptic

Posts: 3651



« Reply #3 on: October 22, 2009, 06:27:49 PM »

Here's the link to White's recent review of Antichrist.  An excerpt:

Quote
HISTORY SHOULD RECORD Danish filmmaker Lars Von Trier as cinema’s biggest hoaxster.Von Trier’s never made a good film—Zentropa, Breaking the Waves, Dancer in the Dark, Dogville (most of them part of his “Dogme” movement) were shams perpetrated on the culturally absent-minded—yet von Trier has bamboozled critics and festival organizers into repeatedly showcasing his hoodwinks. Von Trier’s new film Antichrist, starring Willem Dafoe and Charlotte Gainsbourg, is his latest manipulative salvo. The quasi-religious title is misleading provocation; Antichrist is really anti-cinema.

From this opening paragraph, it's pretty evident what White thinks of Lars von Trier.  This review starts off by hitting one of White's most notorious characteristics: deriding critics who disagree with him.  In a lot of cases, this is considered a bit of a straw man tactic, but in this instance, I think it's somewhat relevant.  Von Trier is known for deliberately playing to the crowd -- or playing with it.  That crowd can be considered the general audience (although I suspect most "general audiences" wouldn't bother seeing any of von Trier's films), but it's most likely the critics.  The games von Trier has played with his public persona is clearly directed partly at those who would attempt to make sense of it (a.k.a. critics), so it actually makes sense that White would launch his own salvo at von Trier by also targeting the critics who prop him up as a world filmmaker.

Of course, insulting the intelligence of these critics ("culturally absent-minded," are they?) is probably bad form.  But then, von Trier has often been (justifiably) accused of holding his audience in contempt.  I can see a case being made that anyone who endorses being held in contempt is worthy of said contempt.  This doesn't really speak to the justifiability of White's sniping as common practice, but in this review, it's worth asking if it happens to serve the piece.

Another notable couple of points about this review is the absence of a couple other White hallmarks.  1.) He doesn't use the word "hipster" anywhere, or its frequent corollary, "elitist" (or variations thereof).  2.) He doesn't make references to old or obscure films as points of contrast or comparison.  The only films directly cited are White's own.  He does make a broad reference to J-horror, and throws in a dig at Steven Soderbergh (which, again, is arguably relevant, as Soderbergh has managed his image as a chameleon, similar to a hoaxer himself).  In this sense, the article is clear evidence that, whatever detractors say, White needn't build his reviews around references to random, old films or vague attacks on the hipster establishment.

Of course, half the review is a broadside against not only Antichrist, but von Trier as a filmmaker.  The interesting part is that, in the last paragraph, White rhapsodizes about von Trier's cinematographer for the film, Anthony Mantle, and concedes that von Trier has the capability of a master.  The final line is was delivered well, but it doesn't seem to match the assertion that Antichrist is "anti-cinema," especially since White admits that the film bears the distinct fingerprints of skilled filmmakers.
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Matt
skeptic

Posts: 3651



« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2009, 06:28:21 PM »

I could always get on the hate train....

The dude sux.

IMHO

He's a paid troll.

I do not, and cannot take anything he says seriously.

Why and how?
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Matt
skeptic

Posts: 3651



« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2009, 08:10:58 PM »

Here's the link to White's review of Where the Wild Things Are.  An excerpt:

Quote
Max’s tantrum and his imaginary selfexploration aren’t pandering family-film clichés; this is the anti-Harry Potter, anti-Pixar version of movie fantasy. And it’s not banally “dark”—in fact, the private world Max discovers has a vivid, fully realized topography, including a surf-lapping beachfront where Max survives a gorgeous shipwreck and a sun-bright desert where that frisky pup reappears. (“Don’t feed it; it will just follow you around.”) As conceived, this fantasyland is more than a dreamscape; it’s a psychic-scape—as if Max were inside his own movie. Jonze (with coscreenwriter David Eggers) interprets Sendak with generational specificity—not as a pre-schooler’s bedtime story but a daytime realization of childhood’s rages and complexes.

Terrible proofing aside (a perennial curse at the NYP, it seems), I think this is really a great paragraph.  Lots of force and evocative imagery borrowed/described from the film. I get the impression that White liked the film a lot more than most of his peers, who mostly gave it positive ratings, but who had slightly more mixed feelings.  I'd be really interested to know what Dayz thinks of White's review, having written his own for us.

White has a real respect for Jonze as a director, name-checking some of his music video work (White loves pop music, so he seems to always try to keep up on what's on MTV), and while I can't testify myself to how "innovative" WTWTA is, White is firmly on the side of the majority with this one, praising first and foremost the energy of Jonze's approach as a director, and taking time to pick apart the travails of making a successful, personal adaptation of a book that was probably insidiously difficult to adapt.

Some typical White sticking points show up.  The biggest one is probably his dismissive snipe at Adaptation, widely regarded as one of the finest mainstream films of the decade, saying in so many words that Jonze is better off without Charlie Kaufman... even though, just moments before, White highly praised Being John Malkovich as being so original that "it has no serious imitators."  Arguably, at least half that originality (if not more) belongs rightly to Kaufman for conceiving the story and screenplay.  The taken-for-granted reference to Cat in the Hat as a premium example of fine children's entertainment is another WTF bon mot, since very few people have even seen the film, and virtually none of them thought it was any good.  Which isn't to say that he isn't right, it's just that his propensity to make these contemporary comparisons as points of received wisdom is often ridiculed.

An iffy point was the Popeye reference. I haven't even seen Popeye, but I know that it has attracted something of a cult following since its initial release and failure.  Putting Jonze in the company of Robert Altman is an interesting comparison, and perhaps not unjustified, since both took exaggerated naturalism and used it as an authorial signature.  The reference may be considered a little obscure, but apart from its (again) received wisdom tenor, the comparison may be apt.
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Matt
skeptic

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« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2009, 08:17:58 PM »

One of the big questions I think I'd like to see hashed out (if anyone has the energy and inclination) is what exactly Armond White's political leanings are.  He has taken swipes at liberals and conservatives.  He clearly seems to value films with "spiritual" appeal and takes great issue with films that attack religion (he lacerated Year One and The Invention of Lying), but he tends to shy away from defining his own spirituality in his reviews.  If memory serves, I belief he comes from a Christian background, but I'm not sure how his faith and conception of religion has evolved -- obviously, there is a multitude of variety in Christendom.

One of the biggest problems White's detractors seem to have is that they perceive an inconsistency between reviews in his aesthetic and political views, and what they mean to society.  I was wondering if anyone had some insight as to what White's specific allegiances or paradigm might be, assuming that even if he expresses his views in an inconsistent fashion, he's working from a consistent, solid belief-system.
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D_Davis
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« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2009, 10:36:14 PM »

Why and how?

I think he goes out of his way to be as contrary as possible for the attention and web-hits.

I don't think he's genuine at all.
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Matt
skeptic

Posts: 3651



« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2009, 11:05:24 PM »

I think he goes out of his way to be as contrary as possible for the attention and web-hits.

I don't think he's genuine at all.

How do you make that case, though?  It's not unheard of for people to have very idiosyncratic tastes and opinions.
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Juss
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« Reply #9 on: October 23, 2009, 04:33:35 AM »

Why and how?

Honestly and seriously, he's just another film critic to me. and to be honest, I'm not all that interested in the opinions of film journalists who write weekly reviews for broadsheets - they don't go in depth enough into a movie to really get under a movie's skin for me.  Don't get me wrong, I'm curious as to what the general vibe is likely to be and where there's a reviewer I consistently agree with, I'm more likely to be curious as to whether they liked a particular film or not, but I've rarely read anything in a broadsheet that interested me enough to hold on to it or dissect it.  I'm as curious as to the cult of Armond White as I am Roger Ebert as neither of them write stuff that interests me. 

Not that I have the time but I'd be far more interested in reading an academic textboox on Von Trier written by someone who is interested in his movies and takes them seriously.  I mean, fine, White has written a couple of hundred words saying that he hates von Trier, that his movies suck and that people who like them are dupes.  Clearly, the fact that he has a prestigious career that takes in Cannes winning movies, spawning a cinematic movement and legions of critics, academics and laypeople as fans I'd think that there's more interesting things to be said about his work other than "he's a hoaxter and he's crap".  Curiously he seems to take the line that only he has discovered this and the rest of the world is blind to it, but I've heard the same line from countless critics over pretty much every one of his movies - in particular Antichrist - so that's getting a little boring too.

So yeah - reading his work does nothing for me I'm afraid.  I'm not even remotely offended or provoked by the fact that he hates von Trier or Tarantino.  Popular media can say whatever it likes about films that I find interesting and that's fine.. generally these movies receive a lot of attention because there's something interesting about them anyway and for better or worse their legacies are likely to live on.  I'm more concerned about these people's power to cast death sentences on excellent movies by generally ignoring them. (How much critical publicity did, say, Howl's Moving Castle or Ghost in the Shell 2 receive).

I haven't read enough of Armond White to work out what his politics are.  I read a piece he wrote on Pulp Fiction, I read something else I forget and now this one.  He strikes me as slightly reactionary and/or someone who is keen to make it clear that he does not follow the current voguey trends in cinema.
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D_Davis
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« Reply #10 on: October 23, 2009, 09:01:35 AM »

How do you make that case, though?  It's not unheard of for people to have very idiosyncratic tastes and opinions.

It's just a feeling - don't really put much thought into it.  I don't give him my attention anymore, kind of like trolls on RT or something.  He's not really worth my time.  I also try to avoid people who attack and belittle people who like certain movies.  White has repeatedly called people idiots for liking certain things, and while this kind of behavior can pass as humor on sites like RT, for a "professional" it's just very childish.  White has too many axes to grind.
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D_Davis
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« Reply #11 on: October 23, 2009, 09:30:00 AM »

He reminds me of the Zero Punctuation reviews on the Escapist.  This guy Yatzee makes these videos where he goes out of his way to nitpick videogames.   Sometimes they are funny, but they got old, fast.  They purposefully rip to shreds the uber popular games with humor for web hits, and it works.  The Internet eats that kind of stuff up.   It's not genuine - it's entertainment.   I got tired of it quickly.

I feel White is similar.  He's an entertainer.  People turn to him because his opinion is almost always in direct opposition to the consensus.  He's garnished this shtick which has given him a following, and eventually I had to ask myself if I though he was being genuine or not.  I don't think he is.  He's created a character that gets a reaction out of people, kind of like ZP, or one of those extreme right-wing talk show hosts who say things just to get a rise out of liberals.
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Juss
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« Reply #12 on: October 23, 2009, 09:59:45 AM »

Quote
Jonze’s symbolic/ironic world reveals youth culture’s solipsism—it’s a long-overdue response to the self-indulgence ushered in by Nirvana’s Nevermind.The children’s film genre provides a therapeutic context for Grunge’s gratuitous unease as expressed in Nirvana’s “Sliver” lyric: “Grandma take me home.”

WTF!  Yeah - I'm sure "Where the Wild Things Are! is a response to the self indulgence of Nirvana.  Has to be.  Sorry, the self indulgence "as ushered in by" Nirvana.

I think this kind of throwaway nonsense is a case in point as to why I don't really take broadsheet critics very seriously.
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Matt
skeptic

Posts: 3651



« Reply #13 on: October 23, 2009, 11:30:25 AM »

WTF!  Yeah - I'm sure "Where the Wild Things Are! is a response to the self indulgence of Nirvana.  Has to be.  Sorry, the self indulgence "as ushered in by" Nirvana.

I think this kind of throwaway nonsense is a case in point as to why I don't really take broadsheet critics very seriously.

It may be fair to cite this as an example of why you don't like White, but I don't think his writing is at all typical of mainstream critics (I'd group a lot of the big slicks like Rolling Stone, New Yorker, etc. with the "broadsheets").  One of the reasons so many people hate him is because of connections like this.  And given Jonze's career, which has its origins in the height of the Nirvana/grunge era, and which is largely built upon his earlier work as a music video director, that might not be such a stretch.  It's just a stretch beyond what you normally read.  I don't think dismissing all print publication critics in general is really fair.  It's something Armond White would do, actually.  I read an interview with him where he couldn't name one single contemporary critic that he thinks is any good.  He said something vague about there being maybe a handful of decent ones, but none came to mind (and this was including critics in general, I think -- not just broadsheet critics).  That struck me as really arrogant.

Honestly and seriously, he's just another film critic to me. and to be honest, I'm not all that interested in the opinions of film journalists who write weekly reviews for broadsheets - they don't go in depth enough into a movie to really get under a movie's skin for me.  Don't get me wrong, I'm curious as to what the general vibe is likely to be and where there's a reviewer I consistently agree with, I'm more likely to be curious as to whether they liked a particular film or not, but I've rarely read anything in a broadsheet that interested me enough to hold on to it or dissect it.  I'm as curious as to the cult of Armond White as I am Roger Ebert as neither of them write stuff that interests me.

The only thing I'd add to this is that it seems that you haven't read a lot of White's stuff.  I really wouldn't say that you'd like it any better, but saying that neither he nor Roger Ebert writes stuff that interests you seems prematurely dismissive, doesn't it? 

Quote
Not that I have the time but I'd be far more interested in reading an academic textboox on Von Trier written by someone who is interested in his movies and takes them seriously.  I mean, fine, White has written a couple of hundred words saying that he hates von Trier, that his movies suck and that people who like them are dupes.  Clearly, the fact that he has a prestigious career that takes in Cannes winning movies, spawning a cinematic movement and legions of critics, academics and laypeople as fans I'd think that there's more interesting things to be said about his work other than "he's a hoaxter and he's crap".  Curiously he seems to take the line that only he has discovered this and the rest of the world is blind to it, but I've heard the same line from countless critics over pretty much every one of his movies - in particular Antichrist - so that's getting a little boring too.

That's typical of White, as I noted earlier.  But I think in what you just said here, you're sort of glossing over an interesting division in critical consensus.  I mean, yeah, von Trier has a lot of fans and critical apologists, but that in itself doesn't really mean that his work is any good.  It's what those apologists have to say that matters -- and ultimately, what really matters if how much you agree with it, or how much insight you can glean from it that enhances your appreciation of the films, right?  At the same time, von Trier has always deliberately tried to be controversial, going out of his way to piss people off.  That's, like, his M.O.  White does a little more than just call von Trier a hoaxer, and he does give him some credit -- he just hates the way that von Trier has put his talent to use.  Which isn't out of line with a lot of other critics.  If you decide to read a textbook or extended analysis of von Trier, would you rather read one that just supports everything you already thought, or one that takes into account von Trier's foibles and failings as well?  Getting tired of hearing that von Trier isn't that great, or that he's kind of a poser... Well, if these comments are as ubiquitous as the praise, then shouldn't you be interested in hearing them, too?

Quote
So yeah - reading his work does nothing for me I'm afraid.  I'm not even remotely offended or provoked by the fact that he hates von Trier or Tarantino.  Popular media can say whatever it likes about films that I find interesting and that's fine.. generally these movies receive a lot of attention because there's something interesting about them anyway and for better or worse their legacies are likely to live on.  I'm more concerned about these people's power to cast death sentences on excellent movies by generally ignoring them. (How much critical publicity did, say, Howl's Moving Castle or Ghost in the Shell 2 receive).

I haven't read enough of Armond White to work out what his politics are.  I read a piece he wrote on Pulp Fiction, I read something else I forget and now this one.  He strikes me as slightly reactionary and/or someone who is keen to make it clear that he does not follow the current voguey trends in cinema.

I think his approach to film writing is explicitly reactionary, although I'm not sure that's descriptive of his politics.  And White does write about smaller films as well as bigger ones.  I mean, just in the last couple weeks, he gave ink to Bronson and Good Hair (the latter of which he did not like, but he did at least cover it).  I recall reading a particularly gorgeous review of Claire Denis's 35 Shots of Rum, which certainly is not a mainstream film, and White was just in raptures over it -- as were most critics, including those denizens of the despicable broadsheets.  It's my impression that White writes about movies when he feels he has something to say about them, and like most critics, there's just no way that he can see every movie, but I think he writes about what speaks to him and what he thinks is important, whether it's because a movie is great, terrible, or somewhere in between.

He reminds me of the Zero Punctuation reviews on the Escapist.  This guy Yatzee makes these videos where he goes out of his way to nitpick videogames.   Sometimes they are funny, but they got old, fast.  They purposefully rip to shreds the uber popular games with humor for web hits, and it works.  The Internet eats that kind of stuff up.   It's not genuine - it's entertainment.   I got tired of it quickly.

I feel White is similar.  He's an entertainer.  People turn to him because his opinion is almost always in direct opposition to the consensus.  He's garnished this shtick which has given him a following, and eventually I had to ask myself if I though he was being genuine or not.  I don't think he is.  He's created a character that gets a reaction out of people, kind of like ZP, or one of those extreme right-wing talk show hosts who say things just to get a rise out of liberals.

If you go by the Tomatometer, he's in opposition 50% of the time.  So at least half the time, he's with the consensus.  I'm just curious to know how you know he's disingenuous.  It just seems very easy to label someone as a troll when they have a very eccentric viewpoint that they choose to express in borderline hostile terms.  Which doesn't make it fair that they are so aggressive, but it doesn't mean they don't mean every word they say.

And I think there can even be some truth in a rant-y style.  Have you seen that video of the guy who dissects everything that's wrong with DVD packaging?  It's really nitpicky, but very funny, because it touches on pretty much everything that is annoying about DVDs.
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D_Davis
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« Reply #14 on: October 23, 2009, 12:17:12 PM »

Like I said, I don't know for a fact, it's just a feeling I have.  Could be wrong.
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D_Davis
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« Reply #15 on: October 23, 2009, 12:26:48 PM »

I don't care whether or not White likes the movies I like, or dislikes the movies I dislike.  The main reason that I no longer pay attention to his is that I am rarely compelled or interested in the things he has to say.  Pauline Kael was someone who had vastly different tastes in movies than I do, but I love reading her because I find her insight interesting and her voice was fresh and exciting.  I don't get this from White.  With him it's all noise.  There is a Armond White thread at Match Cut, one here now, and blogs devoted to his wackiness (http://armonddangerous.blogspot.com/).  He must be doing something right, because people are paying attention - I just can't help but be a bit cynical about him.

There's another reviewer, too, who is basically Armond White Jr.  Can't remember his name.  His review site is basically a White Echo Chamber, and I know they like each other a lot.  This dude's top list of films in 2008 was totally outrageous.  Wish I could remember who it was...
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D_Davis
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« Reply #16 on: October 23, 2009, 12:32:17 PM »

Huh, apparently Ebert thinks he's a troll as well.

http://blogs.suntimes.com/ebert/2009/08/in_defense_of_armond_white.html

Quote
On Thursday night I posted in entry in defense of Armond White's review of "District 9." Overnight I received reader comments causing me to rethink that entry, in particular this eye-popping link supplied by Wes Lawson [the below image]. I realized I had to withdraw my overall defense of White. I was not familiar enough with his work. It is baffling to me that a critic could praise "Transformers 2" but not "Synecdoche, NY." Or "Death Race" but not "There Will be Blood." I am forced to conclude that White is, as charged, a troll. A smart and knowing one, but a troll. My defense of his specific review of "District 9" still stands. Here is my original entry:



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Witless
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« Reply #17 on: October 23, 2009, 12:47:20 PM »

I've read a bit of Armond White's stuff. One thing is clear: he has a strong distaste for the middle-ground. While I appreciate his willingness to go against the grain, the way he writes his reviews often seems fairly cheap, especially the way he frequently resorts to ad hominem type statements. Rather than strengthening his point, I can't help but find that it weakens it and it often seems rather gratuitous. He has a tendency that grates my nerves a bit: maybe I'm missing it entirely, but the man seems utterly devoid of humour. His reaction upon seeing a film he hates is too vociferous for my tastes. Even his positive reviews often have digs at other films or directors (for instance saying things like: this film is excellent, the kind of film that a hack like so and so could only dream of making). While I appreciate that he doesn't water down his reviews, I wonder if he has any mood that seems more measured than ecstatic and downright pissed.
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D_Davis
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« Reply #18 on: October 23, 2009, 12:57:17 PM »

He's stated before that most critics don't like Tyler Perry's films because they are white.  One could argue that Armond White likes Tyler Perry's films because he is black.
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D_Davis
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« Reply #19 on: October 23, 2009, 01:02:14 PM »

Even his positive reviews often have digs at other films or directors (for instance saying things like: this film is excellent, the kind of film that a hack like so and so could only dream of making).

This is true.  From what I've read, he rarely simply praises something for being good without taking a swipe at something else he dislikes.

He really does position himself like a more eloquent forum poster.  He uses the same tactics.  But while a forum poster is simply a passionate hobbyist, White is paid professional.
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